Another week, another episode of Samurai Master Cento.
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The Causes and Effects of Eighth-Grade Syndrome Throughout History
fotc (Mazui Subs, Unlimited Translation Works)
9 International Anime Fans, Particularly Those Who Watch “Fansubs”
This subclass of subculture-type eighth-grade syndrome cases is arguably the worst of all subculture cases. Typical symptoms of such a case include, but are not limited to
- claiming to know Japanese, when in fact, the sufferer knows only a few phrases, and is unable to use them properly;
- attending gatherings called “conventions” with other rabid and/or flaming cases, often dressed in unusual or inappropriate clothing in public prior to entrance into the venue, where social ineptitude and behavior acceptable nowhere run rampant;
- a belief that anime is about cultural enrichment rather than entertainment, often including the idea that the translation of the medium is purposed for learning the language;
- a belief that the purpose of a translation is to convert words to words, rather than experiences to experiences, which may mean localizing (because the perception of artistic effect falls under “experience”) literary devices, imagery, symbolism, humor, and other aspects of writing;
- insisting that elements of the Japanese language are never translatable, when in most cases they are, often with creative manipulation and naturalization of language (sometimes known as “editing”);
- a belief that one of the salient features of the Japanese language known as “honorifics” consists only of suffixes applied to names, despite the existence of several classes of honorifics pertaining to, for instance, verb conjugation, as well as “antihonorifics”;
- insisting that honorifics be left in translations, complaining when the name-suffix class of honorifics is omitted, but never complaining when other classes of honorifics are omitted;
- and a blind devotion to one or several “fansub groups” reminiscent of religious fanaticism, to the extent of verbally abusing other “fansub groups” despite having no reason to abuse them other than to reinforce the “validity” of the aforementioned blind devotion.
It is clear from the aforementioned sampling of symptoms that this subclass is exceedingly difficult both to handle and to appease, as they harbor seemingly endless flaws and fallacies, which are reinforced by the subcultural community and their eighth-grade syndrome itself.
Several of these symptoms will be discussed in the following subsections.
A Translation
The purpose of a translation is to provide those who do not speak a language an equivalent or near-equivalent experience as one who does, that is, provide accessibility to the material. It is not the words, but the effect of the words on the mind, that is, the ideas behind them, which are of value. The translator must determine, for instance, themes, message, structure, style, voice, tone, and nuance, and based on these factors arrive at a decision on how to translate the source into the target language. To this end, it is often necessary to be interpretive and fill or omit details which are important or unimportant.
A translation is not a means of teaching the source language, but a means of providing accessibility. Because the purpose is to provide accessibility to those who do not speak the language, the resulting translation must be fully understandable without reference to terms in the source language. The inclusion of terms from the source language which can be translated or omitted for the substitution of natural structure or tone limits the accessibility to the material, and is thus lacking as a translation. The purpose of translation notes is to provide information about the context (such as historical or political details) of the material, and thus they are not acceptable for explaining terms or humor from the source language.
The translation must be one of ideas; if a word-to-word translation and transliteration were sufficient to deliver the full effect of a work on the mind, there would be no need for human translators—machine translation would be sufficient. The limitations of such translations are assumed known to the reader.
The above standards for translation have been broken and abused repeatedly in “fansubbing” and are typically spurned by those belonging to the class of eighth-grade syndrome sufferers under discussion.
B Honorifics
Extensive use of honorifics is one of the salient features of the Japanese language. An honorific is a morpheme which contributes an emotive definite description independent of the propositional content of a clause. Several classes of honorifics exist, from “performative honorification,” which affects verb conjugation, to noun prefixes.
Honorifics are so prevalent in the Japanese language that they may be viewed as contributing to the tone of speech. They are a very natural part of the language, and the experience derived from their perception is no more than noting the tone of speech. As such, they are fully translated by appropriate selection of tone and quirks in the target language.
In the interest of time, only honorifics of verb conjugation will be discussed in this section. Furthermore, only two common morphemes will be presented here as examples, masu and chimau. Masu is an honorific morpheme indicating respect for the listener. Chimau is an antihonorific morpheme indicating contempt or disapproval for an action.
To see why it is unreasonable to include honorifics in verb conjugation, first consider the following two sentences:
- Mary-ga ringo-o tabe-mashi-ta.
Mary-NOM apple-ACC eat-perf.hon-PAST- Mary ate the apple.
- I am speaking in a respectful tone.
- Mary-ga ringo-o tabe-chimat-ta.
Mary-NOM apple-ACC eat-antihon-PAST- Mary ate the apple.
- I disapprove of Mary’s eating the apple.
Second, consider as well two typical translations for these two sentences:
- Mary ate the apple.
- Mary freaking ate the apple.
Finally, consider including the honorific and antihonorific in the translation:
- Mary ate-mashita the apple.
- Mary ate-chimatta the apple.
The inclusion of the honorific is both unnatural and incomprehensible to native English and Japanese speakers alike. It is thus natural not to include the honorific.
Similarly, the name-suffix class of honorifics is both unnatural and incomprehensible to native English speakers who do not speak Japanese, and it is thus natural and accesible—note the goals of translation—to omit the name-suffix honorific or substitute an equivalent English form as appropriate.
C Concluding Thoughts on Such Cases
It is clear that the subclass of eighth-grade syndrome sufferers known as international anime fans, particularly those who watch “fansubs,” is one of the most difficult to handle; those who interact with these sufferers often consider them unbearable.
Their unbearability can be traced to their beliefs, which are flawed and fallacious without bound. These beliefs stem partially from a search for identity, especially cultural identity, and a desire to be associated with a community with “clandestine” habits and practices. The obsession with honorifics despite poor understanding of what honorifics actually are can be traced both to imitation of others within the subculture and to the placement of undue emphasis to things of little consequence, such as minor verbal connotations.
Due to the malignant effects of the symptoms of this subclass of eighth-grade syndrome on both the sufferer and his or her surrounding community, it is the opinion of the author that such cases require treatment of some form. No other class or subclass requires such treatment as they are, typically, harmless and sometimes even beneficial to both the sufferer and the world at large, whereas international anime fans, particularly those who watch “fansubs,” can only cause harm. Research is necessary to determine courses of treatment for this subclass of eighth-grade syndrome cases.
The Causes and Effects of Eighth-Grade Syndrome Throughout History by fotc is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Research was funded in part by FFF Fansubs.
YES! More Samurai loli!
fotc 2016
Thanks for the new release!
Arigatou gozaimashita for the lecture fotc-sensei !
It’s fansubbing, not professional translation work. Might as well leverage the advantages that come with the turf. Instead of trying to half-assedly translate words commonly used in anime like denpa, tsundere, moe, gappu moe, kemonomimi, onore-ra, kakuyuugouhannou, shikyuudatsu, chuunibyou etc., just use the Japanese term and explain it in a TL note.
Reading this week lecture made realize that i partially fit the described problem. I feel ashamed now…
Does it mean that there is still some hope left for me?
BTW. Thanks for release!
I re-read the entire thing to see if there was some hidden info on where Seitokai Yakuindomo* is, this was no such thing.
I still want the “name-suffix class of honorifics” in my anime.
@RedUnit10
I’m going to go on a whim and say it’s very relevant the translation of SYD at least, considering its heavy reliance on pun humour and contextual references. That said, any update on that would be nice.
Hey there,
Just wanted to pop in and say I am extremely appreciative of you guys and gals for taking the time to sub anime. I assume y’all are doing this for free and in your free time no less.
I know sometimes on the internet, when you do something for a large audience, the majority of feedback you may get is a bit…”negative” or “unappreciative” compared to the small amount of grateful, positive comments, so I really wanted to say:
Thank you for subbing and releasing all these anime episodes/series. Thank you for the timing y’all put into the subtitles appearing and matching with what the characters say. Thank you for choosing a font that doesn’t hurt my eyes. Thank you for making the translation relatable and flow well with the mood. Thank you for creating a website, hosting episodes and actually giving feedback to your audience. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for taking your free time, that you could probably use to relax and not deal with so much flak, and use it to release anime subs that helps make my day enjoyable.
*Side note: this isn’t some kind poke or insult at anyone, so please don’t take it the wrong way. Just wanted to say thanks to the people who are giving me a smile.
based fotc
I think I asked this about two years ago, but ETA ’til UTW drops weeb shit like honourifics entirely?
Well I don’t claim to know Japanese, but I do take certain enjoyment in incorrectly throwing around the few phrases I do know lol. Thanks for the episode!
I like your article fotc, and as I was reading it, I found myself nodding and agreeing to a lot of it, but…it suddenly gets pretty hard to see it as a serious research paper or whatever when you include stuff like “international anime fans, particularly those who watch ‘fansubs’, can only cause harm.”. That’s like saying that all Americans can only blow stuff up, and don’t know how to contribute to the world in a positive way. It’s an extreme case of cynical generalizing and taking everyone under one comb in a negative way, and obviously, that’d give you minus points right there if you were doing this as an assignment in University or something, since it’s not something that belongs in a serious paper, or in research.
Also, Japanese honorifics are a bit of a special case, since the meanings and messages they convey in each situation and context are not ALWAYS possible to translate and carry over into English in an effective way. As such, simply including the Japanese honorifics instead might be easier, but like you said, this is also a method that can cause a lot of problems, since it requires that the watcher has some knowledge of what they mean in order to properly understand their use, and most first-time watchers who are not Japanese would not have this knowledge. I guess a perfect solution doesn’t always excist. 😛
Was this supposed to be funny?…
A lot of terms are adopted on every language from another so at some point you don’t need to translate such terms, who can say any terms it’s adopted I think its just de-facto. Just think if a translation for Sushi is needed, but what about Onigiri.
However on some cases there is an agent that regulate the adoption of those terms like for my native language, Spanish, the RAE, but finally its the people who promote and decide to adopt those terms, maybe for you, English speakers, its not so common to adopt terms from another language but from my point of view its really common, I mean we usually adopt English terms on our Spanish, maybe because a lot of new terms emerge from the internet on English, well its true that the people who its not in the context of such terms don’t understand them, but with time it becomes of general knowledge, that said I really think there is no final word on this, and the masses and general acceptance will rule out at the end on how a language evolve.
BTW, not only Japanese terms are adopted by people what about Taco, what will you say to those who decide to adopt such term.
Honorifics in subs are bullshit. For those who’ve never spoken to real Japanese people: they drop honorifics faster than you guys drop shows that don’t have them.
Would you say as fast as any group drops shows that you work on Minami?!
@ Yo
>what about Taco, what will you say to those who decide to adopt such term.
Well, Russian official movie translators did, in ‘Revenge of leftovers’…
@anyone who says than honorofics in subs are bullshit
Oh come OOOON, don’t say such bullshit.
thx fotc!!
lol @ textwall of dubious credibility. stay chuuni, fotc. you have my support and approval.
the new girl is ok, but Kumin still best girl.
SYD subs any minute now?
UTW are you doing fate stay night remade this year 10 2014??? info here http://anidb.net/perl-bin/animedb.pl?show=anime&aid=9977
ty for release quality work
Every time you leave honorifics in, God kills a puppy.
So… today you felt like slapping this group’s viewerbase in the face? How very kind of you.
@shark0week0
Nobody needs puppy while there are kitties in this world.
I can never tell whether fotc is serious or not. I mean, if viewed in a sarcastic tone, its quite entertaining. If viewed in a serious tone, its slightly disturbing…
Idiots are idiots, trying to define them as “chuunibyou” or “international anime fans” or “fansubbers” doesn’t change the fact that they are idiots……also generalisations are not worth the paper they are written on (or in this case webpage space!)
On an unrelated note……Thanks for the release ;P
Tks. I’m waiting SYD*! xD
@HeavenlyArmed I find the insinuation that everyone who watches UTW is an idiot to be a little uncalled for. I’m sure there are plenty of viewers who *don’t* fight to the death about honorifics and don’t act like they’re Japanese language experts when they need subs to watch anime.
>International Anime Fans, Particularly Those Who Watch “Fansubs”
>This subclass of subculture-type eighth-grade syndrome cases is arguably the worst of all subculture cases
That’s it, I’m going back to Doki. You blew it.
BTW the joke’s on you, you just managed to educate me even more so now I can be even more picky about pleb-tier subtitles tarted up with trying-way-too-hard typesetting.
Pretty harsh words you wrote, make a sweeping generalization of people who watch fansubs, also honorifics for character names are an entirely different thing than honorifics used to context sentences as most people have adopted most of these words in their vocabulary and understand what they mean (such as chan and sama). Love your releases (a much truer translation than Crunchyroll). The only gripe I have is that you don’t translate the way Dekomori speaks (desu/death? all the time). Even though I am sure you translated it differently for season 1.
@Xythar Well, okay. Saying everyone who follows this group is an idiot is going too far (and wasn’t really my intent, but I see how it could come off that way). But you can’t really deny that a good chunk of the people who *do* fall under the category fotc describes are also people who would instantly go to utw for whatever they’re watching without considering any other option.
Just give the people what they want, UTW. Make like the Japanese anime industry and pander to the hardcore fans. We lunatics are running the asylum, that’s a fact of life.
This episode was pain and misery. Thanks for translating though.
Hooray for the article
Thanks for the release!
Will you be doing Fate Kaleid liner Prisma Illya OVA?
Hmmm no updates on SYD…
*goes back into the Abyss*
“Yo on March 13, 2014 at 8:12 pm said:
A lot of terms are adopted on every language from another so at some point you don’t need to translate such terms, who can say any terms it’s adopted I think its just de-facto. Just think if a translation for Sushi is needed, but what about Onigiri.”
Don’t joke around. Onigiri can easily be translated as sandwiches, and in fact I encourage UTW to do so from now on. Translating chuu2 as grandiose delusions for example takes into account that we must not only assume the viewer has no knowledge of the source language, but also no knowledge of the source culture.
Just assume that the viewer is completely culturally ignorant about the Japanese. What is an onigiri anyway. If it’s staple foods, sandwiches will do just as well.
If you are translating for a bunch of people who already know about suffix honorifics and some other terms in Japanese, why try do adapt and omit them?
Unless you plan to sell your fansub to the general public, it’s probably better and easier to leave them there.
“Don’t joke around. Onigiri can easily be translated as sandwiches, and in fact I encourage UTW to do so from now on. Translating chuu2 as grandiose delusions for example takes into account that we must not only assume the viewer has no knowledge of the source language, but also no knowledge of the source culture.”
Except when they translate onigiri as sandwich and then the action on screen proceeds to deal with rice balls and not a god damned sandwich is to be seen. Obviously the issue is more complex than replace all terminology and cultural references with a western equivalent, and deciding blanket terminology for each situation regardless of context is silly. I’ve seen chu2 localized in a variety of ways depending on the context and “grandiose delusions” isn’t a good blanket translation either. If you want a localized show without any japanese cultural references at all, stick to good old fashioned american TV. I promise you won’t have any trouble understanding it. Unless you aren’t american, in which case you should find someone to sub it and localize all the terminology for you.
@Celticlord
Dekomori’s speech was the same in S1. ‘Desu’ aren’t need special translation, it’s merely ‘desu’ in extravaginal manner. She uses katakana instead of hiragana while writing it, though (as seen in S2E4).
not sure if fotc is joking or srs bsns. =\
This post makes a big deal of honorifics but still does not properly explain why they’re not as big as deal as people make them out to be.
What the hell?
Most anime come with a highly unlocalised track. It’s called the audio.
Now before you attack me, just think. If you are complaining that ‘onigiri’ has been translated as ‘sandwich’ (not just the guy that posted this, other people too), you have noticed that the original audio refers to ‘onigiri’. Thus, the whole thing balances out. Less localisation won’t help you, since you can in fact understand that they are referring to ‘onigiri’. This being said, more localisation may help the less Japanese affiliated understand. Of course too much localisation will just destroy the meaning of certain things, as this example shows.
Really, it’s just the editor’s discretion as to where the line should be drawn, and we should all just learn to live with it, and if you can’t, watch other groups (since different editors edit to different levels) or learn the language and watch raws (as some people actually have done).
Hopefully, I didn’t offend anyone…
Nice research… Though I’m staying out of any discussions about it…
Thanks for ep. by the way. 😉
what was the overall purpose of essay #9? which segement of your fanbase were you intending to convince and why? why are you criticizing the use of name suffix honorifics when your releases always use them including this one? if it is such bad practice then why do so many groups do it including professional translators on Crunchyroll? why does your example equate verbs with personal names? why are you presenting an incomplete analysis? why do you assume that the hate for some fansubs groups is driven by loyalty to a different group rather than justified criticisms of the target group? how much did the cartel pay you to post this? why are members of other fansub groups commenting here? how wise is it to attack the tastes of your core fans? how do you think this will affect any future requests for donations? why do you keep fansubbing for people you hold in contempt and who give you no respect either? what will your editing policy be now that you have come out strongly against your current style? why did you wait so long to make these views known? who would you recommend as a good alternative fansub group? how far have you been pushed into a corner by Crunchyroll and Crunchyedits? does UTW still support its unofficial third-party internet defence force? what does the F in FTW stand for? Are Mazui still active? What was Sena doing with Yozora’s wig on the bed? how many points out of 10 do you think you deserve?
[frodo.jpg]
@Kiyoso It is actually “death” as shown in some of the official art and the closed captions included with the S1 BDs: http://puu.sh/7vyam.png
It’s up to the translator how to handle that, of course.
I haven’t heard the word “extravaginal” before, but I assume it means “outside the vagina”. This should go without saying. I’d be more worried if she said it in an intravaginal manner.
This week, fotc looks down on people! Wait, that’s every week. We should examine his posts for clues on his psychological condition. Superiority complex, or something more complex?
😛
The troll is strong in this one.
I lol.
There has been some interesting evolution of fansubbing over the years, and even professional translations are changing. Some phrases (such as 許さない — yurusanai) will not convey even close to the correct meaning if translated literally, and are much better off translated into an appropriate figure of speech. Older translations were often much more literal.
Weird speech mannerisms are also rampant in anime, and can be even harder to translate. I’ve seen a few examples in both fansubs and professional releases with varying degrees of fluidity. Most sound awkward, but then again, some of those characters seem like they must sound awkward in Japanese as well. I can’t begin to guess what is supposed to be attractive about verbal tics, but… I’m not Japanese.
One thing that has often made me laugh is the translation of terms in martial arts, particularly Japanese arts where it is normal to use Japanese terminology in describing things. Go watch a Kendo match in the USA or Canada, and people don’t scream out “head”, “wrist” or “sides”, it’ll be “men” “kote” or “dou” (Or “tsuki” for the throat target) Seeing those kinds of terms translated is always kind of weird for me, but I guess for the fan that doesn’t do martial arts, it probably makes sense. It’s worse when liberties are taken with the translation, giving symbolic names to things like stances and positions.
As for this week’s lecture… I’m interested in learning Japanese. As a part of that, I watch Japanese entertainment, including anime, but not so much to get a translation, but more to train my ear to hear the different sounds that the language produces. It can be tricky in rapid-fire speech to hear the difference between “ra” “da” “ba” etc. Nothing for it but more exposure, and since my opportunity to converse with native Japanese speakers here is quite limited, I find this suitable. Sometimes I watch shows with the subtitles turned off, to see how far I can follow it, but given the quirks in speech, I often can’t follow, given that what I’ve learned is far more formal Japanese, and when I do get to speak with people, they’ll give me time to work through it, and generally speak more formally in order to make it easier for me. After all, I’m not a high school student anymore, and am unlikely to be speaking to peers and close friends in Japanese, so many of the phrases in anime are going to be just plain inappropriate.
Loved the article, it gave me a good chuckle. Thanks, as always, for the hard work.
Shichimiya #1!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hang in there!
So have you guys dropped SYD or not?q
@Xythar
The word ‘extravaginal’ was a SYD* reminder, I thought you can figure this much.
may this out of topic
sir, you will sub Prisma Illya OVA ?
If only everyone could read that article that would be great. (meme intended – http://i.imgur.com/6FZ39Jr.jpg)
Also, as always, thank you for the hard work.
@Arcs
If we haven’t said it’s dropped then it’s not dropped.
ar, how rude. I’ve only dropped 1 show ever.
I think foct is suffering from a syndrome that makes people think they are writing useful articles that scientifically prove facts about a made-up disease or other things.
Guess there are all kinds of syndromes out there.
Wow, I bet you guys had to empty your backs after writing all of this.
Chuunibyou: The TL/Editor Butthurt Edition LOL> Will you gaiz just stop butthurting the fansubbers?
I heard you guys not only dropped SYD, but you actually eliminated Go Hands from production. How did you do that?
SYD where bitches.
i still think over localization tends to alienate the hipster generation anime fans
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– Ohayo, Raze
– Ohayo, Raze-san
If wikipedia is right, using last name directly without -san implies a certain level in intimacy between the 2 people. How would you translate it while dissing the usage of honourific?
Can you make an announcement for ep 11 if your going to delay it.
I, for one, have little faith in humanity, but would like to believe that the general populace isn’t mentally retarded or lazy. If they have the neurons to find midget hillbilly bestiality scat porn to masturbate to on the internet, they can jolly well find out what several Japanese words mean in English on the Googly machine.
Accessibility my fucking arse. Go watch some Michael Bay movies if accessibility is what you want. Don’t even need a brain to process that shit. Nice and safe for yanks like yourselves.
Entertainment can be for learning as well? NAW. Nobody ever learnt nothin’ from entertainment. New English word you haven’t come across before while watching a movie? Fuck that shit. Throw that dictionary away, this is ENTERTAINMENT. Learning is what decapitation porn is for (I recommend Juan Gotoh).
Bet if it’s up to you fuckwits, you’d translate Japan as America and turn Rikka into Rachel so the kiddies can grow up to be xenophobic and ethnocentric cultural imperialists like you fine gentlemen. After all, If Japan were to be translated into America, the “experience” of the show wouldn’t change (because I’m sure that’s the only thing that people who watch Chinese donghua like Winter Sonata want in their Bollywood films).
In fact, it’d be closer to the ‘authentic Japanese experience’. Since the show is local for them, why not make it local for you pasty-faced white boys? It worked supremely well for Power Ranges and Cardcaptors. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. Don’t tip-toe around like whiny little bitches bashing people’s tastes and preferences and go big or go home. Turn Japan into America. Do it. I dare you.
Seriously though, liberal, plebeian translations are nothing more than the superfluous, over-embellished and pleonastic ramblings of a pompous and jingoistic ignoramus whose imagination has gone bat-shit fucking berserk and whose talents are best served writing for Ed Wood. Feel free to wrap your minuscule head around that, unless of course you consider this comment to be entertainment.
…BTW, thanks for the laugh, I had fun writing this. 😉
No one would advocate using “mashita” in subs because sentences wouldn’t even parse as English, but adding “-san” to the end of an already foreign name harms nothing and certainly provides a more accurate experience than rewriting a joke to avoid it. The appeal to accessibility fails when you consider that even the most casual subbed anime watchers prefer honorifics (see Crunchyroll). Rather, the people who object to honorifics tend to be immensely condescending elitists like the author of this essay.
High level trolling. I’d say you have to be at least a level 70 troll to make a troll of such mastery.
Reading that comment almost made we want to go read w/e you were ranting about but tl;dr.
lol
Thank you for the auspicious writeup. It in fact was a amusement
account it. Look advanced to far added agreeable
from you! However, how could we communicate?